Some of the bell pits, sunk into the shallow coal seams, are hundreds of years old. 3 bedroom detached newly built house; Cul de sac of similar properties; 3. Written 18 July 2022. Using contemporary sources and the research undertaken by aviation historians, Philippa Hodgkiss, Glyn Warren, Adrian Durnell and Tom Thorne, Bernard OConnors documentary history provides the human story of these many disasters and near disasters. Marketed by Samuel Wood - Ludlow. What's the least amount of exercise we can get away with? January 14, 2021 Sid At 540 metres this is the high point of Shropshire.. It is now thought that there were more wartime crashes on Brown Clee than any other hill in Britain. Christensen, who the court heard dreamed of being a "lone soldier" in the Royal Marines and had suffered several bouts of depression, wanted to kill someone, "just for the sake of killing somebody" - as a "sort of lifelong desire and ambition". Secretary of Commerce and former Institute of Politics (IOP) advisor Ron Brown was killed in a plane crash yesterday a few miles outside the coastal Adriatic village of Dubrovik . All three crew killed: Crew: Sgt Edward Moorhouse (pilot) RAF - killed. [7], American military aircraft are no longer allowed to fly into airports without explicit approval from the United States Department of Defense, not even for high-ranking diplomatic missions. inaccuracy or intrusion, then please [9] Flight crew [ edit] Two Wellington Bombers, a Hawker Typhoon and at least two Avro Ansons also crashed here. and a memorial commemorates the 23 Allied and German airmen killed here when their planes crashed into Brown Clee during Second World War. They, along with the ones on top of Titterstone Clee Hill build up a picture of all the aircraft in a hundred-mile radius. 19, by Susan B. Anthony and Ida Husted Harper (1902). Both crew were killed. Chris, from Northern Ireland, became interested in 2013 when he saw the names of two of the American victims on a memorial at the former American military cemetery at Lisnabreeny, which overlooks Belfast. Guide price. Two Wellington Bombers, a Hawker Typhoon and at least two Avro Ansons also crashed here. This dark secret has now been documented. Brown and 34 others were killed. He was found, soaking wet, by officers outside the home of a woman who had called police. 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My point was your remark of it having been a marker and yet the majority of crashes were on Brown Clee. Thirty-five people, six military crewmembers and twenty-nine civilians, died in the crash. He also held a current. [2] The investigation board determined that the approach used was not approved for Department of Defense aircraft, and should not have been used by the aircraft crew. VideoRussian minister laughed at for Ukraine war claims, The children left behind in Cuba's mass exodus, Xi Jinping's power grab - and why it matters, Snow, Fire and Lights: Photos of the Week. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. Why Alex Murdaugh was spared the death penalty, Why Trudeau is facing calls for a public inquiry, The shocking legacy of the Dutch 'Hunger Winter'. Australia, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea. But Mr Hall, who was still working part-time as an engineering company director, was found the next morning. Read more about this topic: Brown Clee Hill, History does nothing; it does not possess immense riches, it does not fight battles. People would walk to the Abdon Quarry on Brown Clee Hill from as far as Bridgnorth and Ludlow, and often they would tend to at least one other job. Richard Hall suffered 26 injuries, including a "horrific" wound to his hand when he was attacked on Brown Clee Hill in Shropshire last August. "I don't understand how somebody could be that sick and that is all he wanted to do," said Ms Rhodes. Moses Christensen denies murder by reason of diminished responsibility, Richard Hall suffered 26 injuries in the attack, the court heard. [6] The board determined that the particular NDB approach used required two operating ADFs, the instrument used to fly such an approach, on board the aircraft, but this aircraft only had one ADF installed. taken 16 years ago, near to Abdon, Shropshire, Great Britain Memorial to airmen who have crashed on the Brown Clee hill The Brown Clee hill, at 540 m, is the highest point in Shropshire so, not surprisingly perhaps, has been the site of a number of air crashes mainly during the second world war. Speaking for the first time, granddaughter Rachael Rhodes said the first she knew anything was wrong was when she took a call from her worried grandmother. The BBC is not responsible for the content of external sites. Remains recovered by - and to - 27 MU RAF Shawbury, where formally Struck off Charge as Cat.5 (Scrap) on 27/01/1969 "During the intervening years I met David Gotto, Priscilla's nephew who not only gave his wholehearted support to the memorial tablet but also embarked on a restoration of the family grave which will in time also indicate how Priscilla died and with whom.". With Alma Aurea and D. From Stokegorse, Clee Burf and Brown Clee Hill. "Why pick on an innocent man?". Despite being the tallest hill in Shropshire, Brown Clee (540m/1770ft) receives a fraction of the visitors of its showier neighbours further west. "It was sort of a gradual, long process for me. Among the six occupants killed was Graham Hill, ex-Formula One World Champion in 1962 and 1968, who retired from racing in 1975 to run his own F1 team. But the dhustone there wasn't as good quality and durable as over on the Abdon side and that quarry failed to after a short period. A Gannett Company. Brown Clee Hill is with a height of 540 meter the hightest point of Shropshire. Brown Clee Hill, looking towards Abdon Burf, "Church Stretton, Geological Survey of Great Britain (England and Wales),Solid, sheet 166", Brown Clee Hill Computer Generated Summit Panorama, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brown_Clee_Hill&oldid=1068050970, Mountains and hills of the United Kingdom with toposcopes, Pages using infobox mountain with grid ref, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, This page was last edited on 26 January 2022, at 11:24. Do you have more information about this location? [3], The Boeing CT-43A used for this flight was formerly a T-43A navigator training aircraft that was converted for distinguished visitor travel. Everyone else on board died at the scene of the crash. The official accident report gave his status as having a lapsed FAA instrument rating, though he probably flew enough instrument flights to have qualified, had he re-applied. "We have lost someone that we can never get back for the worst possible reason. meltdiceburg. On Thursday, extracts of his interviews with police after his arrest were read out in court. Simon Evans (1895-1940), the postman writer of Cleobury Mortimer, had his ashes scattered on Abdon Burf following his death.[7]. "I felt it strange that the only person killed in the air crash and still resting in the British Isles had no acknowledgement as to how or with whom she died. She is said to have worked for the MTC and for the Ministry of Supply - neither of these was military - like the Women's Land Army the MTC were civilian volunteers so the rank of Captain seems odd. [6] The engine and other parts of one of the Wellington Bombers are said to rest on the bottom of Boyne Water, Brown Clee. Pilot mysteriously honored at Bear Swamp Hill plane crash site in the Pine Barrens John Gregg speaks about a mysterious memorial for Major William F. Dimas, who died after crashing a F-105 into . The BBC is not responsible for the content of external sites. What's the least amount of exercise we can get away with? The flight was on an instrument flight rules non-directional beacon (NDB) approach, which is a non-precision type of instrument approach, to Runway 12 when it strayed off course. Brown Clee Hill is the highest hill in the rural English county of Shropshire, at 540 metres (1,770ft) above sea level. Or are you interested in war medals and their recipients? Two Wellington Bombers, a Hawker Typhoon and at least two Avro Ansons also crashed here. [7], A number of US Air Force (USAF) officers were found to have contributed to a failure of command. "He had lost touch with reality, there is no doubt about that.". Do you want to create your own battlefield tour to sights of wars from the past? Unlike civilian 737s, the military CT-43A version was equipped with neither a flight data recorder nor a cockpit voice recorder. Possibly she was the driver for one of the two officers who were passengers on the aircraft. What makes your dream home? Mr Hall was known for his physical fitness and it is believed he was geocaching that day on Brown Clee Hill, his "favourite place to go and walk". Those who lost their lives were 28 British personnel, six Germans, four Americans, four Canadians and one New Zealander. The ability to comment on our stories is a privilege, not a right, however, and that privilege may be withdrawn if it is abused or misused. He cited Mr Christensen's desire to be a "lone soldier" in the Royal Marines and plans to kayak around the UK, with no sea-faring experience, as examples. Captain Priscilla Gotto, aged 27, from Belfast, who was killed when a Boeing B17 Flying Fortress on which she was hitching a lift home crashed into the Clee Hill east of Ludlow on Saturday, November 25, 1944. Neither ASN nor the Flight Safety Foundation are responsible for the completeness or correctness of this information. 52.466354, -2.596451 Nearby Clee Burf. Aircraft came down at Brown Clee Hill, Lyth Bank, Stanton Long, Shropshire. Follow BBC West Midlands on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. [7], The area of the crash site is identified by a large stainless steel cross on Straie peak. Can Nigeria's election result be overturned? Video, Russian minister laughed at for Ukraine war claims, Latest news and updates from the West Midlands. [6], The crash site, on a 2,300-foot (700m) hill, was 1.6 miles (2.6km) northeast of where the aircraft should have been on the inbound course to the NDB. Bernard O'Connor's research reveals that there were 19 air crashes on the Clee Hills between 1937 and 1975 with the loss of 43 lives. Moses Christensen, 22, told police he planned to kill and searched for victims, Stafford Crown Court heard. As Nolanda Hill perhaps knows better than anyone, the death of Commerce Secretary Ron Brown in a 1996 plane crash may have constituted an act of deliverance -- but not in any religious sense. It is now thought that there were more wartime crashes on Brown Clee than any other hill in Britain. The common land features the remains of where an Iron Age hill fort once stood (See Below). "Incredibly fit" Richard Hall had gone walking on Brown Clee Hill, Shropshire, after waving goodbye to wife Sheila. No emergency call from the pilots occurred, and they did not initiate a missed approach, though they were beyond the missed approach point when they hit the hill at 2:57pm local time. WAR, (as the local magpies call themselves) have looted most of these sites, so not much to see at most of them. The first aircraft to crash into Brown Clee was a German Junkers 88, on 1 April 1941. Whilst 23 were killed on the Brown Clee during the Second World War, Titterstone Clee claimed 11. An expert psychiatrist told jurors at Stafford Crown Court the defendant's mental illness was "the only explanation for this killing". When the Air Force plane carrying Secretary of Commerce Ron Brown crashed in Croatia in April 1996, rumors immediately circulated that the beacon that was supposed to guide the plane to the. Inform us! This Junkers Ju88 raider came to grief in 1941. "I was very happy and proud to be his wife, the light has gone out of my life and I will never, ever get over this," she said. The jury must decide if the killing was murder or manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility. Captain Priscilla Gotto, aged 27, from Belfast, who was killed when a Boeing B17 Flying Fortress on which she was hitching a lift home crashed into the Clee Hill east of Ludlow on Saturday, November 25, 1944. Much more of Brown Clee Hill is private land than on Titterstone Clee, and large areas are covered with coniferous plantations. Flew into Brown Clee Hill near Ludlow, Shropshire at 1,772 feet AGL. It was built some time in the British Iron Age first millennium BC and gives a commanding view of the local countryside. The Clee Hills (Brown Clee is Titterstone's slightly taller sister seven miles north) are even drawn and named on the Hereford Mappa Mundi of c1300. If the wind was coming down over the hill it was apparently possible to hear the stone crusher at the top crunching away, even down in Cleehill village. I think that's a very important point.". That pair had been initially buried there, but their bodies and those of the other American victims, who were buried at Cambridge, were repatriated to America after the war. Gen. William E. Stevens, vice-commander Col. Roger W. Hansen, and the commander of the 86th Operations Group, Col. John E. Mazurowski, were all relieved of their posts. Registered in England & Wales | 01676637 |. As . Looking for reliable information or news facts about WW2? The gentler relief of the surrounding area is characterised by the mudstones and sandstones of the St Maughans Formation. The quarries totally finished in the 1930s and 40s. Video, Russian minister laughed at for Ukraine war claims. The general commanding the 86th Airlift Wing, Brig. Tripadvisor performs checks on reviews. The published NDB approach brings the inbound aircraft down a valley, and has a minimum descent height of 2,150ft (660m) at the missed approach point (where they should have climbed and turned to the right if the runway was not in view), which is below the elevation of the hills to the north. 27C We're foryow The Adver CASH FOR SICK KIDS an = 7 Taz La hi zi Zs ~ t : ' z a 7 5 | ts | i: . Thursday's crash is the second fatal one involving a small plane in less than a year in the county. Captain Priscilla Gotto, aged 27, from Belfast, who was killed when a Boeing B17 Flying Fortress on which she was hitching a lift home crashed into the Clee Hill east of Ludlow. The hill has been the site of numerous wartime plane crashes, perhaps more than any other hill in the country. Read about our approach to external linking. An expert psychiatrist told jurors at Stafford Crown Court the defendant's mental illness. Brown Clee Hill lies five miles north of Titterstone Clee Hill. Nordy Bank occupies a sloping ridge top site and its ramparts are up to three metres high. [5] While NDB approaches are essentially obsolete in the United States, they are still used widely in other parts of the world. It was not the hill that the crashes took place on. As he tried to climb out of trouble a wing clipped the ledge of a quarry on Titterstone Clee Hill at 1,300ft, and the aircraft cartwheeled to its doom. OnTheMarket > 14 days. had told police officers he "had planned to kill people". This site is part of Newsquest's audited local newspaper network. Menu; Africa. "It is our hope that the memorial tablet can be taken to Clee Hill and placed as a permanent reminder of the events of November 25, 1944, and any assistance offered by World War Two aviation history groups in the area in assisting us finding a suitable location would be greatly appreciated. India, Japan, Russia. After the quarries closed, a lot of the quarrymen went to work at the Cockshutford quarries on the other side of Brown Clee. "In the months leading up to the killing he was increasingly disordered. A man "roamed around" looking for people he could kill before fatally stabbing a 70-year-old hill walker, a court has heard. Twelve Department of Commerce officials, including Secretary Brown, were among the deceased. Several air traffic control radar masts on the summit of the hill can be seen for many miles around. Many local people came out to help after the crashes, agricultural labourers, farmers, the Home Guard, anti-aircraft crews, searchlight crews, troops from the Kings Shropshire Light Infantry, the local police as well as staff from the RAF Maintenance (Rescue) unit and RAF Accident investigators. "[We have] just lots of memories together, it is such a loss.". But his path crossed with Moses Christensen, who had trekked 20 miles to the area intent on killing someone. [7] It was a requirement of the US Air Force to review and approve all charts, and to ban flights into airports for which the charts did not meet the proper American aviation standards. 2023 BBC. "He always challenged himself and he was the first one up the slope at skiing," she said. The first aircraft to crash into Brown Clee was a German Junkers 88 on 1st April 1941. Moses Christensen denies murder by reason of diminished responsibility, Richard Hall suffered 26 injuries in the attack, the court heard. Brown Clee Hill is the highest hill in the rural English county of Shropshire, at 540 metres (1,770ft) above sea level. Some attribute the crash to Titterstone and others to Brown Clee. Clee Hill. [7], The USAF ordered all military aircraft to be equipped with a flight data recorder and a cockpit voice recorder. Today, planes are guided by the towers. The crash occurred in Covington, Georgia, a small town about 30 miles east of Atlanta, on . While attempting an instrument approach to Dubrovnik Airport, the airplane crashed into a mountainside. It is quite clear he was becoming psychotic and acting in a psychotic manner," Dr Maganty told jurors. Brown Clee Hill is a summit in the Long Mynd region or range in England. The eastern expanse of the hill is in possession of the Burwarton Estate under ownership of Viscount Boyne, whilst the western fringes of the hill are owned by various private land owners and the parish of Clee St. Margaret. After the crash that took out the US Secretary of Commerce and 33 others, the Clinton Administration covered up everything. Data returned from the Piano 'meterActive/meterExpired' callback event. "I could see people on the hillside in the distance so I planned for further targets. ", She added: "There was no point in my mind that went, like, he'd been murdered, he'd died, I just thought maybe he'd lost his way, or got no signal on his phone.". The man, in his 70s, was discovered on Friday morning on Brown Clee Hill, West Mercia Police said. but was found guilty by a jury at Stafford Crown Court on Wednesday, US-made cheese can be called 'gruyere' - court, AOC under investigation for Met Gala dress, Canadian grandma helps police snag phone scammer, The children left behind in Cuba's exodus. Clear, great views, bit breezy. If you have a complaint about the editorial content which relates to US-made cheese can be called 'gruyere' - court, AOC under investigation for Met Gala dress, Saving Private Ryan actor Tom Sizemore dies at 61, The children left behind in Cuba's exodus, Walkie Talkie architect Rafael Violy dies aged 78, Alex Murdaugh's legal troubles are far from over, 'Sonic boom' heard as RAF jets escort plane. Local hospital staff, clergy, gravediggers and crematorium staff played an important role. Brown Clee Hill murder: Richard Hall's family on harrowing wait 6 March 2021 Family handout Richard Hall was an "amazing grandad", his granddaughter Rachael Rhodes said A granddaughter has told. Those ads you do see are predominantly from local businesses promoting local services. Weather and conditions can be treacherous up here, and the Clee Hills claimed the lives of more flyers than any other hill range in these islands. Copies of The Air Crashes on the Clee Hills can be obtained online at www.lulu.com/spotlight/coprolite, from Castle Bookshop, Ludlow, or ask for it at a local library. Non-precision approaches are those that do not incorporate vertical guidance. [10] Mazurowski was later found guilty of a dereliction of duties and was demoted to major, while 12 other officers were reprimanded. "Later that day the guests assembled at the restored Gotto family plot where the poem was read again and a floral tribute was laid by the family. "I didn't really process it because I sort of live in a bubble and I thought everyone was lovely and the world was a great place and to hear someone actually is that evil really did shake me up.". The exploitation of the hill's resources started long before the quarries however. The man, in his 70s, was discovered on Friday morning on Brown Clee Hill, West Mercia Police said. It is now thought that there were more wartime crashes on Brown Clee than any other hill in Britain. 2. [7] The commander of the 86th Operations Group, Col. John E. Mazurowski,[8] revealed that he had requested (but not yet received) approval to waive the review for Dubrovnik, as the approach had worked for years, and the delay of a full review could hamper the interests of the American diplomatic mission. He had considered attacking an elderly couple and when asked by an officer why he did not carry it out, Mr Christensen, of Corser Street, Stourbridge, West Midlands, said he "didn't feel comfortable". The aircraft, a Boeing 737-200 originally built as T-43A navigational trainer and later converted into a CT-43A executive transport aircraft, was carrying United States Secretary of Commerce Ron Brown and 34 other people. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. A journalist in Shropshire for 40 years, mainly writes features and columns, especially about aspects of Shropshire history. There are nearly 25,000 passenger planes in service worldwide, according to Cirium, an aviation data. Online viewing. "We are looking for a contact over there, an organisation which could tell us where it would be appropriate to put it," he said. The Aviation Safety Network is an exclusive service provided by: Flew into Brown Clee Hill near Ludlow, Shropshire at 1,772 feet AGL. Do you have more information about this location? Moses . VideoRussian minister laughed at for Ukraine war claims, The children left behind in Cuba's mass exodus, Xi Jinping's power grab - and why it matters, Snow, Fire and Lights: Photos of the Week. Save Page Now. The first aircraft to crash into Brown Clee was a German Junkers 88, on 1 April 1941. It also records her as Patricia not Priscilla and a transport driver in the Ministry of Supply. In this video the young people. Brown Clee Hill stands at 540m above sea level, to the east you don't reach any higher ground until the Ural mountains in central Russia. While the chief interest.of the catnl) during the 8l)ring monthl it being centered upon baael>all and track, lacroooe and Capture a web page as it appears now for use as a trusted citation in the future. However his defence, supported by evidence from Dr Maganty, argue his mental disorder would have "very substantially" affected his ability to think rationally. Atop this thickness of sedimentary rocks are the outcrops of dolerite which form the summits of both Abdon Burf and Clee Burf. Whilst the radar facilities of the Clee Hills protect aircraft, both hills were once a hazard to aircraft, and a memorial commemorates the 23 Allied and German airmen killed here when their planes crashed into Brown Clee during World War II. Privacy statement, cookies, disclaimer and copyright, On a journey of discovery to historical sites? ", Follow BBC West Midlands on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Extensive areas of head are mapped to the east, and to an extent to the north, of the hill.[4][5]. Whilst the radar facilities of the Clee Hills protect aircraft, both hills were once a hazard to aircraft, and a memorial, unveiled on Good Friday in 1981, commemorates the 23 Allied and German airmen killed here when their planes crashed into Brown Clee during World War II, in addition to those of a Jet Provost which crashed on the hill in 1969. The first aircraft to crash into Brown Clee was a German Junkers 88, on 1 April 1941. Richard Hall was an "amazing grandad", his granddaughter Rachael Rhodes said, Richard Hall was the "life and soul of the party", Rachael Rhodes said her grandad was "always around", Moses Christensen denied murder by reason of diminished responsibility but was found guilty by a jury. Why Alex Murdaugh was spared the death penalty, Why Trudeau is facing calls for a public inquiry, The shocking legacy of the Dutch 'Hunger Winter'. Brown Clee Hill is with a height of 540 meter the hightest point of Shropshire. The 22-year-old denied murder by reason of diminished responsibility but was found guilty by a jury at Stafford Crown Court on Wednesday. It features portraits of the crash victims as well as a guest book. 335,000. They were quarrying for Dhustone (Dolerite), a very hard and challenging material to extract. The name is given as Priscilla and as Patricia. In June, a 79-year-old pilot from Upper Black Eddy crashed his single-engine Vans RV-6A in woods . A killer who stabbed a 70-year-old man on a remote hilltop was soaking wet when he called at the door of a stranger to tell her that he had "committed a crime", a court has heard. A man has pleaded not guilty to the murder of an elderly man at Brown Clee Hill. The first aircraft to crash into Brown Clee was a German Junkers 88, on 1 April 1941. brown clee hill plane crash. He stabbed 70-year-old Mr Hall 26 times and was this week found guilty of murder by a jury. History is nothing but the activity of men in pursuit of their ends.Karl Marx (18181883), The only thing worse than a liar is a liar thats also a hypocrite!There are only two great currents in the history of mankind: the baseness which makes conservatives and the envy which makes revolutionaries.Edmond De Goncourt (18221896), [Men say:] Dont you know that we are your natural protectors? But what is a woman afraid of on a lonely road after dark? Can Nigeria's election result be overturned? There was also an Iron Age hill fort but the quarry seems to have taken it all. Read about our approach to external linking. There were no survivors found after a small plane crashed at a General Mills facility outside of Atlanta. Hi Owen. Nordy Bank occupies a sloping ridge top site and its ramparts are up to three metres high. Two Wellington Bombers, a Hawker Typhoon and at least two Avro Ansons also crashed here. Brown Clee Hill is the highest hill in Shropshire, at 540 metres (1,770 ft) above sea level. Inform us! Brown Clee Hill was once a hazard to aircraft, and this memorial commemorates the 23 Allied and German airmen killed here when their planes crashed into Brown Clee during World War II. A young woman who was killed in one of Shropshire's worst ever air crashes has been remembered in ceremonies in her native Belfast on the 75th anniversary of her death. Build wish list. Whilst 23 were killed on the Brown Clee during the Second World War, Titterstone Clee claimed 11. Brown clee hill has free roadside parking, easy walking paths up to the summit, bit of a hike but well worth the effort, some great ruins of some old quarry buildings at the top . The pilots (who would posthumously shoulder the blame for the crash) made a panicky request for an alternate landing site to Houston air traffic control roughly 13 minutes before going down in a wooded area outside Gillsburg, Mississippi . The remains of medieval bell pits abound and make the land seem unreal, as if some giant had taken great scoops of earth. This information is added by users of ASN. The aircraft sideslipped and struck the ground with 90 degree of bank. Starting from the layby, we head off up to the summit of Brown Clee Hill, the highest point in Shropshire at 540m, with commanding views over the Shropshire Hills AONB. The BBC is not responsible for the content of external sites. Perhaps it's the lack of obvious The killer was told by Mr Justice Pepperall to expect a sentence of life imprisonment on 16 March, but his granddaughter said "it is not justice". The force added they had received information at 8.30pm on Thursday which led to the arrest. The police investigation concluded that the case was a suicide. Please report any comments that break our rules. An icon used to represent a menu that can be toggled by interacting with this icon. His researches have revealed that they were the site of 19 air crashes between 1937 and 1975 with the loss of 43 lives. It was planned, it was calculated to a large extent. one strange rock gasp quizlet New Lab; glider timetable dundonald park and ride; 12 gauge 100 round drum; Walks up Brown Clee Hill At conservative gathering, Trump is still the favourite. A little bit of ice along the trail but nothing dangerous as of today. Read about our approach to external linking. Aircraft from Valley sometimes fly over me doing exercises in flying under its radar and the SAS do what I take to be insertion/recovery by helicopter training in a wood about a mile away at periodic intervals, Bob I know that I was just commenting on the temp drop not doing a topography lesson.
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