If you have a early 351W ie pre 76 it probably . Aftermarket headers, such as those made by Hooker, BBK and Competition Engineering, are better and are just as easy, if somewhat more expensive, to procure used. Instructions on porting the GT-40p heads here. I got a set of AFR heads , night and day. A LOT of them do it these days. That's a 40 per cent increase in power from a simple head and cam swap, and one seriously happy Mustang owner! LOW-BUCK 302 FORD HEAD UPGRADE Richard Holdener 239K subscribers 189K views 2 years ago WESTECH PERFORMANCE GROUP WHAT'S IT WORTH? The results were a major increase in power throughout the entire rev range, with an increase of 60hp at 4500rpm through to a peak of 279hp at 5800rpm. A solid 300-325 hp should be plenty and that's with good drivability and reliability as well. When combined with modern power-makers, such as nitrous, the 302 is more than capable of producing 400+ horsepower for little more than the cost of a stock engine rebuild. Theres many options available for a little more power. that is a healthy budget deal. It's a classic move we've pulled off many times. Ive bought wrecking yard SBFs and put 20 lbs of boost to them and spin them to 7000 and made 500 HP with several of them. (A starter is a motor, windshield wipers use a motor,electric windows use motors) Any one uses that terminology in my shop will be corrected once, only once. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. 69-70 302 heads (the ones with the heart-shaped combustion chamber) Any early 289 heads for the chamber size (but you'll have small ports & valves w/all that CR) Flat Ernie, Aug 27, 2011 SHARE POST #8 fordfan289 Member from indiana correct me if Im wrong but cant you use 351c heads and get the same thing as a 302 boss. I used Lightning heads on my 302, (GT40 not P) with stock rockers on a flat tappet engine. I'm new and I'm currently building a 302 on a budget and want to raise compression without milling heads but by pistons and I want to get close to 10:1. This is just a quick overview of the changes that need to be done. SB Ford, GT40 .575" Lift Max Output II Drop in Valve Spring Kit, Hyd Roller, 140 Lb Seat. how hard to put on? Yea. These cast piston short-blocks are not quite as good as the forged piston 5.0L that came in Fox-body Mustangs, but the GT40P heads flow much better than earlier 5.0L heads. We also discovered some issues with the GT40P heads that required changes, so we added valves from Manley that eliminated the exhaust-valve rotators and allowed us to set the proper valvespring installed height. Joined . That's more than enough to feed a power-brake booster. Early Windsors tend to have fairly restrictive exhaust manifolds, making the addition of a set of headers that much more efficient. Take the assembly to a machine shop to have it balanced and install it in the block. On the power side, we selected 400 hp as an impressive but reasonable output for our small-block 5.0L Ford. Very true about finding them at the local yards. One benefit gt40P head will have over other 80's-90's model heads, including the gt40 head, is that it has a smaller combustion chamber much like the original 289 heads. You need to check. We've already been motivated to put this engine in a buddy's Mustang. 402 HP NA from a HI PO 289 isnt that mysterious of a feat to accomplish with todays SBF Aftermarket parts availability. All Ford Mustangs | Model Specific Forums, GT-40P Heads - 5.0 Mustang & Super Fords Magazine. Stock 93-95 Cobra shortblock (stock cobra cam), GT40X heads, 1.7 rockers, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, Holley 650, and longtube headers. Definitely going to use my P heads. It turned out we were conservative on both counts. With the engine reassembled, we boxed up our second camshaft and headed for Westech's dyno. There are too many variables to add to this regarding aftermarket stroker kits or components. AFR 165 Heads | Have options for pedestal mounted rocker arms or stud mounted rocker arms. So . I had those on my car before I upgraded and they were nice heads. What did the heads flow? The asterisk HP differences are calculated using Test 1's 294-hp peak. Common sense would suggest that with the heavy lifting complete and the old cam removed, by not installing the new roller lifters along with the camshaft could be asking for the possibility of trouble just a few thousand miles down the road. i'd love to use these heads,. You can have your current 28 oz rebalanced to 50. Sponsored. I'm running stock GT40 heads with stock 4.000 bore on cylinders and a Lunati cam with 256/262; Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 213/219; Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .483/.499; LSA/ICL: 112/108. Not to mention, they will run circles around GT40P's out of the box. The GT40 heads have thermactor holes built in to connect to the EGR/smog equipment whereas the GT40P heads use an external EGR connective system. We gained 45 hp and 40 lb-ft of torque. The hardest part of swapping the cam was just getting the timing cover off and back on again. Ill do springs and a moderate cam and go for a good, dependable power plant. As a final goal, we decided to bolt on a simple nitrous system and see if we could push this little small-block Ford to make some real power. Mac and Ford Motorsport both make a GT40P spacific header. I'm using the Trick Flow stage 1 cam with 1.7 roller rockers. Many years ago, a friend bought a used 2001 Mercury Mountaineer 5.0L that was equipped with a set of really decent GT40P style iron heads. Both have very similar valve sizes, but the GT40P head has slightly larger combustion chambers for a small bump in compression and better flow. That's a good combo in my book. We took the heads to Mike Slover of Slover's Porting Service in Sun Valley, California, to do this work, plus some basic pocket-porting to improve flowespecially on the exhaust side. i have a 302 engine from a 1977 granada and i am wondering if gt40p heads from an explorer will fit on this motor. What you are trying to do is to increase the amount of airflow through the engine in order to make more power. 1979 Indy 500 Pace Car. There are a lot of variables that must be addressed to give a better estimate, but a good basic estimate is 20-40 HP at the crank. Yea. So I've got the motor and heads already for my maverick project. There is a better way. We did the installation at Holten's place of employment, Motorworks, in Longwood, Florida. A trip to Orlando Speed World provided us with updated quarter-mile times. Start with any 302 block, but try to find one from 1985 and up since it will already have provisions for a roller camshaft. Pride is built, in your garage, with your two hands. I would like to know what heads, cam and intake manifold combination to use for the most HP I can squeeze out of that motor. In order to make Coyote-type power you will need some expensive, high-flow cylinder heads with a short block that can withstand spinning in excess of 6,500 rpm. When compared to the new generation of performance engines on the market today like the 5.0L DOHC Coyote engine, your engine will not come close. 68 XR7 & 68 M-100. Actually, making around 240 to 250 hp with a near-stock Windsor 302 will feel pretty good. Skip to main content. Really hurt too. The engine was only rated at 215 hp, but it at least had 9.0:1 compression. i have a question once i get the gt40p heads from the explorer truck can i also take the exhaust manifolds or headers and fit them in my 66 mustang:?:!?!?!? I need that part number too! The only failures Ive had were timing chains and a couple broken rods in a mid 80s 302 with 200,000 miles on it that got about 35 lbs of boost stuffed into it when a pop off valve I bought on ebay failed. I'd much rather be able to drive it at 8 or 9/10s of what it can handle. We did a quick search for hydraulic roller cams and landed on a COMP camshaft that looked promising. Is asking advice for a fairly common situation involving parts with mandatory compatibility between the two for performance and longevity. They are more expensive than standard head gaskets, but they also do the job and are worth the additional money. check out the. You could run a thinner head gasket as well. Stock valve sizes? This is needed for the steel roller cam. We bolted the Ford to the dyno with a set of 158-inch long-tube headers and an 18-inch collector extension to help the low-speed torque, then we fired up the small-block. There's not a lot of reson to use 351 heads later than '75 since they essentially identical to 302 heads except for head bolt holes. For the most part 302 heads and 351W heads are the same. If they are cheap enough, take them anyway. Holten's best time is a 12.63 at 105.9 mph, and if we gain the desired result he will be right in the thick of things in Trophy Stock competition. We decided on a Powerstar kit from Nitrous Supply, owned by our good friend Mike Thermos, who was one of the original nitrous kit suppliers back in the early '80s. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. never messed with the timing, its at 35* total . Its funny no one mentioned anything about ignition timing or components, Your email address will not be published. In a 3,250-pound car like a Mustang with 3.50 gears and an automatic with a 2,800-rpm converter, this 5.0L could pull 12.80s at 108 mph. In 1987, he assumed the role of editor for Hot Rod magazine before returning to his first love of writing technical stories. The longer duration created a slight loss of torque below 3,300 rpm compared to both previous cams, but beyond that mild loss of power, the bigger Voodo out-powered its smaller cousin, cranking out a peak torque of 355 lb-ft at 4,300 (a gain of 7 lb-ft over Test 2) and charging to a peak horsepower of 376 at 6,000 rpm. This needs to be removed and different exhaust valves, retainers, and valve springs added to turn this into a decent street head. A forum community dedicated to vintage Ford Mustang owners and enthusiasts. We will go into more detail on the head mods in a later story in Junkyard Builder, so watch for it. All manufactured using advanced CNC technology for the extreme durability and precision required of the modern canted valve Ford Small Block at power levels around the 1000 mark reached during recent competitions at the EMC and at the strip. fordfan289, Aug 27, 2011 You'll have to plug the oil hole that is in the engine from the old oil dipstick. They work, but present their own challenges. This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Your email address will not be published. Step 2. You didnt mention what camshaft you would be choosing or exactly which 5.0L Ford Windsor engine you are working with. With the GT-40P heads you will need to back off the timing a couple degrees and bump up the fuel pressure. Anythoughts? If I remember right, non of the GT40P's (later models) had the thermactor smog provisions. Through Central Coast you can have the heads fully prepped for your combination. Good on ya Jeff Smith. Test 1: 750-cfm carburetor, dual-plane intake manifold, and stock camshaft. The dyno recorded a peak horsepower reading of 489 hp, but the air/fuel ratio was slightly on the rich side at 11.5:1, so we increased the nitrous jet to a 61 and hit the button again. Ford Factory 5.0 Performance Cylinder Heads. I turned it because it was tired when I got it. Assuming the above configurationa pushrod 5.0L will potentially make between 250 and 260 hp. Win or lose, if you buy the ticket you must take the ride. Our recommendation would be, rather than change the camshaft, you might want to look into adding a set of long-tube headers and a dual exhaust if the engine is not already so equipped. Aside from the cost of the nitrous itself, this setup should cost you little more than a stock rebuild using all brand new parts. Stock heads with a fresh 3-angle valve job, shorty headers, T5, 4.10s, stock Explorer intake and stock '88 GT short block with 140,000 miles on it and an E cam in it. I have a very good running stock 1981 302 in a F100 short box. Jeff Smith: It would have been better to know a little bit more about your combination, but the short answer is yeswith a hydraulic roller camshaft, assuming the lifters are in good shape and the roller wheels show no unusual wear, they can be re-used on a new cam with no danger of adverse effects. These timeslips are from 1280' above sea level. The GT40P cylinder heads had a small combustion chamber ranging from 58-61cc while the GT40 heads had a 63-66cc combustion chamber. I recall having an absolute blast with my old K-code coupe back in the day. The 302 uses smaller 7/16" head bolts and your "P" heads may or may not require the step washers. In an effort to preserve the history of the Early Fox Era, FEP covers the following vehicles: 79-86 Mustang and Capri, 84-86 Mustang SVO, 78-83 Fairmont & Zephyr, 83-86 LTD & Marquis, 80-88 Thunderbird & Cougar, 82-87 Continental, 84-92 Mark VII, 81-82 Granada. Most of them are aware of what changes need to be completed. Assuming this will be a daily driver engine, a short duration camshaft, especially when combined with a four-barrel dual plane intake manifold and headers, will deliver extremely snappy throttle response and the whole combination will increase the torque and peak horsepower by somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 to perhaps 35 horsepower. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. Anyways, I know the gt40ps will bump . I got a GT40P off the assembly line years ago. Go for it if you get them super cheap and can get headers/manifolds super cheap as well but otherwise I'd say it's a waste of time and money. If you're going to use the stock 289 heads, install 1.84-inch intake valves, then port the intake and exhaust; these mods will net you about 185 cfm of intake port flow at 0.50 lift. This is the main reason why these engines are not modified as much as the small block Chevy. Real world data seems to show that GT40 or GT40P cylinder heads, assuming no other mods on your Foxbody, are good to add anywhere between 20-40 HP (over stock heads). We probably could have coaxed an even 300 hp out of this stock configuration, but with such good numbers, we decided to jump right into the first Lunati cam. Let us explain. We've seen what happens from previous Ford experience when power levels above 500 hp tend to either pop head gaskets or saw blocks in half. While the heads were off getting a massage, we turned our attention to the cam timing. The question was whether we wanted a torquey small-block or a more cammed-up rpm engine to boost peak horsepower. Car Craft mag. We were cruising the 'yard a while back and located a 2000 Ford Explorer with an EFI 5.0L V-8 engine. Thanks for the help, I was planning on puttingin roller rockers or at least new springs, and that engine looks great, hoppfully mine will look at least similar to that one of these days. *** 65 Mustang 351C 4v, AOD, 4.11 gears *** 66 Galaxie convert big block. I ran the Speed Pro L2488 pistons and it had me around 9.9 compression with a .041 head gasket, Now I had GT40 heads milled .020 and so that's just a guess on the CC. And remember ENGINES have been being built/rebuilt/modified for years. I added a link to it. I can tell you that with my 9.503 block, 22cc dished pistons and 64cc heads, I'm at 9.5:1 compression. JavaScript is disabled. This combination should be good for about 400 horsepower and as much as 500 if you opt to use the stronger aftermarket pistons. I'm running BBK un-equal length shorty's, and I'm able to get all the plugs in, tight, and all plug wires on. If there isnt room without disassembling half the front clip on the car, then it might be easier to remove the engine and do the conversion that way. Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 12:05:31 pm by businesstrader Logged shaunp. Thank You. The "P" heads flow better. Actually the regular gt40's in either aluminum or iron are the good ones but the gt40p's are only a slight improvement over regular 302 heads. Build Thread 1965 Fastback Project "Racesteed". Late-model ford GT40 and GT40P heads with 1.84-inch intake valves will also flow 185 cfm at 0.50 . i know a guy who used to build race engines so he has all the right tools, how much would it help to get the heads ported and polished or anything else he could do to them. But dont think that adding a bigger camshaft will make more power. The valve seats have been cut on a . $930.00 + $55.00 shipping. Assemble the rotating assembly with a stock 5.0L crankshaft, a set of 5.0L rods and the specified pistons with stock-type rings. Free shipping. The heads also required some machine work, including screw-in studs, guideplates, and widening the spring pockets for bigger valvesprings. Purchase any used aftermarket manifold for the 302 that is designed to function in the 3,500 to 6,500 power band. Long tube headers are a terrific idea, but you need to open up the exhaust side. Yep my **** is coming apart again Isnt life great! Despite adding 30 degrees of intake duration, this cam improved torque throughout the entire test from 3,000 rpm on up. I got lucky and found a complete Explorer GT40P engine online. Nudge us with emails, and we'll make it happen. You might even say its like flogging a dead horse without any animals actually being injured during my moments of sarcasm. I bought a crate 302 from Downs Ford a few years ago that was producing 320 hp. Everything fits, use the stock rockers and pushrods. K.S. GT 500; Posts: 8496; Location: Brisbane . T5z and 3.89 9" TL rear. Rowe studied engineering, philosophy and American literature at Central Florida Community College. Adding the headers may also require a slight increase in secondary (and possibly primary) jetting to ensure the proper air-fuel ratio, but thats also an easy tuning change. The cost of a new set of standard replacement roller lifters is very affordable at major retailers like Summit. the springs are new stock oem ford. That carbureted GT40P motor made 465 on th engine dyno with a .500" 239/244 camshaft, Holley 650 carb and Weiand Stealth intake. I'm wondering how these heads will interact with the paxton 1220 sl supercharger I'm trying to put on. This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. Manual trans. I plan on running a AFM b31 cam too which has relatively small duration for the intake valve. people can stop saying that adding aftermarket cam with stock heads is a waste of time. Limited header choice is certainly a challenge. They fill that spot between power and budget. Consider having the head's intake ports matched to the intake manifold gasket. Headers and a camshaft will help but the engine really needs aftermarket 3/8 inch connecting rod bolts and aftermarket cylinder heads. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. We decided to test both ideas, so we ordered two roller cams from Lunati: a shorter-duration cam that would deliver decent idle vacuum and maybe make around 320 to 335 hp, and a longer-duration version that might push the horsepower up to perhaps 350 hp. They were located in Tahachapi CA, and were sold with upgraded springs for $650.00, back in 2002-2003 ish. And have discovered something that I dont think anyone else knows. Scorpion 1.6 roller rockers. Jeff Smith has had a passion for cars since he began working at his grandfather's gas station at the age 10. Works on all factory cast iron E7, GT40, and GT40P cylinder heads! fuel injection system . http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?t=89153, http://www.facebook.com/groups/233213650060739/, ascMcLaren & Motorsport/Grand Prix IV Capris, RHD and Other International/Export Models, Mods, Maintenance & Mechanical FAQs/Archive, If this is your first visit, be sure to
At the time, I was still running smog equipment in a 1994 Mustang GT, so I had them drill the back of the heads for the thermactor connection. Dec 8, 2011. Because its all been done time after time after. We also added a veteran Ford magnetic pickup distributor and used it to drive an MSD ignition system. You can find them on later model Mercury Mountaineers and several other Ford SUV applications. Here is my setup. At 4,300 rpm, the torque peaked at 348 lb-ft, a solid 20-lb-ft improvement, and the Lunati continued to outperform the stock cam all the way through with a peak horsepower increase of 60 hp at 354 hp at 5,700 rpm! P-heads have a smaller combustion chamber at 59cc, which will bump the compression ratio up on an otherwise-stock 5.0 engine. Location: Re: Stock Ford 351W 4bbl dyno numbers. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for FORD GT40p 4 BAR HEADS IN GOOD CONDITION w/ONE BOLT BROKEN at the best online prices at eBay! I am working on a set of iron GT40s hoping it goes faster. Now we know why Dennis Hilliard of Central Coast Mustang is so high on these heads. There are literally a dozen or so camshaft companies that offer a mild hydraulic roller cam for a 5.0L Ford. I guess someone could just do a basic valve job and throw on the GT40 upper/lower intake for a cheap HP boost. You will have to get special headers to fit these heads since the spark plugs are angled differently than normal 5.0 heads. 302 .030 over with; Scat Forged Steel Rods, SpeedPro pistons and rings . Because of this, your tuneup will probably need to be modified. Richard Holdener 240K subscribers Subscribe 63K views 1 year ago WESTECH PERFORMANCE GROUP LOW BUCK, GT40P 5.0L HEADS-CHEAP &. This engine will be good for your 65 Mustang. These heads have been remanufactured using refaced reclaimed Factory Valves. The GT40 & GT40P heads had a few differences that are note-worthy, the most importantly being the bump in compression. THANKS VERY MUCH! For those of you running a carb, or aftermarket intake, you already have a leg up in this area and should see even greater gains in power. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. The MPH was there to run a little better but the local track is about terrible. With the P-heads requiring pedestal-mount rockers, we also called up Crane Cams for a set of 1.6 pedestal-mount roller rockers. Come join the discussion about restoration, modifications, NOS parts, troubleshooting, VIN codes, and more! A COMP hydraulic roller cam we found works well with this combination. Where they differ is the combustion chamber size. First, adding headers will improve power on the existing combination. 1.7 shaft rockers and beehives. #1:::Throw out all your Magazines that suggest what to do! Ha! GT40P heads, what kind of performance do they give? Even with a stock Mustang 5.0 cam makes good power. Add a distributor designed for a carbureted 302 but make sure to install the correct distributor gear for your cam. Commonly referred to as Explorer heads, GT-40P iron castings are found on current 5.0-equipped Explorers. Torque on the other hand isnt something to write home about. 1983 Mustang G.T. many thanks to all you eco-hippies giving me dirty looks and helping me feel llike an overall badass rebel. Assorted screwdrivers, pliers and vise-grips. When building an engine there is a lot to take into consideration. Actually, making around 240 to 250 hp with a near-stock Windsor 302 will feel pretty good. I'll save the effort and lighten my front end by 50# with aluminum. Step 1. The reason for this is that we're actually replacing mildly worked E7TE heads. These are Ford iron GT-40P heads. However, stepping up in the performance head market will set you back more than $1,200 for a decent pair of aluminum castings--and that's straight out of the box, with no porting. These are a great head but do need some machining mods to make they really work well. I'd get the gt40 setup, and put an s trim on it. I went to a couple in Tucson and almost all the Ford vehicles that came with a 5.0 had the heads missing. 950.00 us a set and will ship . Im running stock GT40 heads with stock 4.000 bore on cylinders and a Lunati cam with 256/262; Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 213/219; Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .483/.499; LSA/ICL: 112/108. The older pushrod engines just dont offer the same kind of power potential for their displacement and it all has to do with cylinder head flow. Or, you could invest in a new set of heads that would also do the same job but you can expect to spend quite a bit more money. Vehicle: 1972 2 door 302 maverick, 1986 5.0 stang gt convertible,66 mustang coupe, HEMI ram. It's an 86 roller 5.0 engine that had a recent rebuild sometime in the past with keith black pistons, otherwise stock. 68stang351 Founding Member May 16, 2002 850 GT40Ps have 58cc. The 2 heads are about the same when looking at the numbers with the GT40p heads having a slight edge. FULL DYNO RESULTS. PTP Engineering front suspension and 25540R17s all around. How to Build a Budget 383 Stroker Chevy How do I Increase Horsepower on a 440 Cylinder Head Specifications for a 1969 How to Get More Power Out of a 92 4.3 dragster engine image by Robert Young from, Copyright 2023 Leaf Group Ltd. / Leaf Group Media. Install a set of GT-40P cylinder heads from a late 1990's Ford Explorer or a set of GT40 heads from an early 1990's Mustang 5.0L. Can I run the new cam with the same roller hydraulic lifters or do I have to change the lifters too? Since the engine is nearly stock, we would want to choose a relatively mild camshaft with somewhat more lift and duration than stock, but again not going too aggressive. After graduating from Iowa State University with a journalism degree in 1978, he combined his two passions: cars and writing. It took him and yours truly eight hours from start to finish, using air tools and a lift to gain access to the header flanges. Never not once have I ever seen a SBF rod bolt create a failure. at the crank. All this is worth it. There are several actions that could trigger this block including submitting a certain word or phrase, a SQL command or malformed data. Yank a motor out of the junkyard, clean it up, add a camshaft, intake, and a carburetor, and see how much power we can squeeze out of it. For the first test, we were reusing the stock Explorer cam, so the engine didn't need any break-in time. The SUV indicated barely 120,000 on the clock, and after yanking the valve covers to judge the engine's condition, Tim Moore instantly made the decision to do the boneyard version of a smash-and-grab. . The HP DIFF column on the far right lists the horsepower difference between Test 1 and Test 3. You'll also have to use your 289 timing chain cover since it has a hole for the oil dip stick and fuel pump. I'm an old school guy (289 in 65 mustang), and I'm just looking into the new 5.0 engine (roller cam) stuff recently. Do you guys have part numbers for the spring kits? Ford GT40P 302 5.0L 4 Bar Cylinder Head Assembly Pair w/ 1/2" Head Bolt Hole. The action you just performed triggered the security solution. hole size 302 is 7/16 and 351 is 1/2 Im a different animal. How much HP and torque do you think I. But don't think that adding a bigger camshaft will make more power. GT40, GT40P, would be great factory heads. Yeah, except those. a) ain't early and b) aren't 289 heads. $139.99. As with Chevrolet's small-block engine, the aftermarket has had dozens of years to expand the range and reduce the cost of the parts they offer for this engine. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. 1983 Mustang G.T. Features hardened 4140 Chromoly retainers, valve locks, spring shims, a spring height gauge, valve seals, and instructions. These engines came with the GT40P head, which even with its small valves, offers really good performance. It runs smooth but seems lazy. made more power everytwhere and 40 hp is respectable. Obviously, tuneups will vary. I've not seen a set of longtubes that have an issue with GT40P's, either. This test went so well that we were eager to see what the slightly bigger cam would do. Generally expect with a good cam, intake, roller rockers and a good ignition system to see around 300-350 max rear wheel horsepower, depending on what type of dyno you use. You can use the stock roller lifters with any size cam you want. bmcdaniel, Feb 17, 2004 #7. v8maverick Member.
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